This music has very distinctive energy that, while it shares something with pop music, is actually quite different. Compare "Gimme Shelter" by the Rolling Stones:
Or more recently "Jesus Walks" by Kanye West:
But there is an awful lot of classical music that would suffer enormously from being forced into a rigid beat. For example this performance of the Chopin Nocturne op. 9 no. 2 by Arthur Rubinstein:
No, it is not just Romantic repertoire that would suffer. Here is an unmeasured prelude by Louis Couperin that is an extreme example of music that is not intended to have a regular pulse:
Mind you, if I were to put up examples of 18th century music by historically informed performance ensembles we would hear a lot of quite strict rhythms. In Classical music there has always been a spectrum of expression between the more lyrical and free songlike side and the more physical dancelike elements. For example, taking two examples from the same suite by Bach, played by the same performer, here is Hilary Hahn with the Sarabande from the D minor Partita followed by the Gigue from the same suite:
But even in the Gigue with its strongly dancelike character there are subtle rhythmic inflections.
As a performer, while I see the powerful appeal of a rhythmic groove, I also see it as a potential rut preventing you from having some kinds of musical expression.
At the risk of making a Captain Obvious observation, this could be as simple as the reality that the entire history of Western music oscillates between what could be described as recitative and dance paradigms. Manfred Bukofzer's observation about Baroque music was that music shifted between these two polarities regarding rhythm and phrasing--between the proto-aleatoric freedoms of lining out expressive lines in recitative and the motoric tendencies of dance with room across the entire spectrum for music to be written within and across the paradigms. Or as Adorno put it, song and dance. Adorno claimed that the best music of the Western tradition found a way to balance the song and dance elements but that the modes of musical cognition involved in the two aspects of musical duality fractured. It seems he was right about that much, and since then we have people conceiving of music in terms of one or the other without considering the various ways that "argument" and "groove" have always coexisted in music in the West even if they tend to dominate according to form and function.
ReplyDeleteA friend of mine with a PhD in philosophy once said that wisdom is always obvious and boring.
ReplyDeleteAs the object of this discussion I would note that I used the term groove to avoid a normal musicological term like beat. I have since recast it as a percussion based rhythm which I think is more clarifying about the current situation that divides classical and pop music.
ReplyDeleteThe Hatchet is of course correct about Baroque music and we can see this oscillation over the centuries between dance rhythms and polyphony/harmony. Elsewhere I agreed that dance music was perhaps the only realistic pathway at this point for classical music to take in reaching out to pop music.
As I think about it, the restriction to hand/finger struck percussion in Indian classical music whether North or South is highly significant. The use of mallets or drumsticks has a more mechanical feel to it no matter how intricate the rhythms. Unfortunately the Indian hand drum techniques are so intricate that I doubt they are usable in classical music. The main non Indian hand drums are the Congas and the Bongos. But a thought occurs to me that perhaps a rhythm section can be fashioned within the orchestra itself (with or without added percussion) which has the benefit of ease of scoring and playability.
Thanks to both of you for a very interesting and clarifying discussion about this topic.
I would define "groove" bit more specifically. A groove is a regular pulsation at a fairly lively tempo. It has a dynamic energy that carries it along.
ReplyDeleteMaury, you might have a listen to some gamelan music. The gamelan orchestra has a good-sized section of drums, mostly played with the hands and fingers. Unlike in the symphony orchestra percussion section, they are not primarily used for color, but have a vital structural role.
Good discussion!
I assume you mean the kendhang. I am not familiar with the technique of that particular hand drum as I am with the tablas and Carnatic drums. It does look similar to the mrdanga but I would guess the technique is not as involved. The Indian hand drums have a very intricate technique as perhaps you know where the fingers, fingernails, wrists and knuckles are used at different parts of the drum skins. Trying to notate that would be a nightmare. Congas and bongos are a bit less complex in the technique and have been used in Western classical music even by the serialists. So those could be added fairly easily to the orchestra. Although it should be said that the composers up to now haven't shown much subtlety in their scoring for them.
ReplyDeleteBut my thought as I said is that a separate rhythm section could be carved out of the orchestra itself which would provide enough flexibility and nuance to the rhythmic underpinning. Hand drums or other light percussion could be added or not.This would reduce practice time which doesn't look like it will be easy in the current and perhaps future environment.
Yes, the kendhang, which comes in various sizes, tunings and functions. Also the bedhug. I don't think the actual technique is as virtuoso as the Indian tablas, but the role in the orchestra is very important and they serve important structural functions.
ReplyDeleteThe percussion section has grown enormously in recent years in the orchestra to the point that in some recent pieces it amounts to some forty instruments with perhaps a dozen players.
But I think we are confusing the instruments with their function, if you see what I mean. It is really the composers that decide what instruments should be in the orchestra and how they will be used.
But I think we are confusing the instruments with their function, if you see what I mean. It is really the composers that decide what instruments should be in the orchestra and how they will be used.
ReplyDeleteIt is pretty clear that classical composers generally use percussion for coloristic reasons or isolated rhythmic pointing rather than as a continuous rhythm section. My point is that we can construct an orchestral rhythm section without any percussion instruments. I just feel that if drums are used it is best to avoid those that require drumsticks or mallets.