tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post6335165873537201562..comments2024-03-27T23:06:03.736-05:00Comments on The Music Salon: "Radical New Musical Languages"Bryan Townsendhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09482696991279345516noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-83716004927132467122013-01-14T07:49:27.925-06:002013-01-14T07:49:27.925-06:00I think you are saying that appreciation of non-We...I think you are saying that appreciation of non-Western musical traditions is not so hard and may just need a bit of an introduction. You know, you could be absolutely right about that. Perhaps there is sufficient overlap guaranteed by the fundamentals of pitch to allow us access to the music of many cultures. I still have a nagging doubt that we can appreciate much Chinese opera without more exposure, but I'll take your point!Bryan Townsendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482696991279345516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-77193778045671076832013-01-13T20:15:13.297-06:002013-01-13T20:15:13.297-06:00I love Japanese music! Although a large part of th...I love Japanese music! Although a large part of the focus in Japanese music is on timbre, so you get a lot of very meditative/timeless/formless music, but the scales, rhythms, and expression can be fantastic. I'd start with shakuhachi flute music as a great introduction to the Japanese musical dialect.<br /><br />And in fact I'm a huge fan of mbira music, some of the most beautiful non-western melodies I've heard were played on mbira. That music can change radically from country to country, or even instrument to instrument of course.<br /><br />But I do see what you are getting at, and sure, you and I are likely not typical listeners! But here is one more way I look at it-<br /><br />Many English speakers today would have never appreciated Shakespeare (and most never do) if it weren't for the fact that their English teachers explained every single sentence of half a dozen different plays to them. Shakespeare was writing for a completely different culture, but all in English (just a different dialect).<br /><br />I think music teachers introducing kids to gamelan music would find students getting it a lot quicker than they would get Shakespeare.<br /><br />I'm sure part of my interest in world music is a result of the age we live, where art from any corner of the world can be explored by anyone... but most of us don't necessarily need to understand much, if anything about the cultural traditions that helped shape that art in order to appreciate it. It doesn't hurt of course!<br /><br />And yes, I love a good thought provoking discussion... that's the reason this Blog is so great!Nathan Shirleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14123467208814463388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-44225556629078666802013-01-13T16:49:34.652-06:002013-01-13T16:49:34.652-06:00I so enjoy it when someone has an interesting coun...I so enjoy it when someone has an interesting counterpoint. I hear what you are saying, Nathan. As a matter of fact, I Ioved Balinese and Javanese gamelan the first time I heard it as well. And so did Claude Debussy way back in 1889 at the Exposition Universelle in Paris where this kind of music was heard in Europe for possibly the first time. But let me just point out that you and I and Debussy are not typical listeners as we are all composers!<br /><br />How do you feel about Japanese music? When I am listening to the soundtrack to a film by Takemitsu I often think to myself that I haven't got a clue about what this music is about. None of it makes any sense to me.<br /><br />Or what about mbira music from Zimbabwe? Does that make any sense to you?<br /><br />You see where I am going with this? There are a lot of musical traditions that we might not 'get' at first because we don't have any of the musical context.<br /><br />Talking about music of our culture, the sad truth is that young people growing up today in an environment consisting solely of pop music are unlikely to have the ability to appreciate classical music of their own culture.Bryan Townsendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482696991279345516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-9231938758660738232013-01-13T15:47:33.675-06:002013-01-13T15:47:33.675-06:00But I love Balinese gamelan music, and I didn'...But I love Balinese gamelan music, and I didn't hear any of that until I was an adult. Not only did I not have to know anything about the culture, but I also liked it after only having heard a little.<br /><br />I can understand why many westerners can't appreciate it, it is certainly a very different musical dialect, but it's still the same "language". Music from every culture is based on the overtone series which all humans and animals hear constantly in the natural world. If you are an experienced active listener, you can come to understand any music of any culture without too much effort... but most people are not trained to listen this way. You as an experienced active listener may not like gamelan music that much, but it's likely more about taste than understanding the musical tradition. For example, between Javanese and Balinese gamelan music, I tend to greatly prefer Balinese, just a matter of taste.<br /><br />In fact I tend to really dislike the music of my own culture- I heard quite a bit of american folk music throughout my life, and I never did really like it. But that's a matter of taste, too much bouncy major for me.<br /><br />I might have a lot of trouble understanding someone from east London, but given enough exposure I'll get it much sooner than I would another language.Nathan Shirleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14123467208814463388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-59891095370570088902013-01-13T10:52:07.293-06:002013-01-13T10:52:07.293-06:00I never can guess what post will spark the most co...I never can guess what post will spark the most comments. Some very interesting ones here!<br /><br />Nathan, I have trouble with the saying "music is the universal language". Now sure, everyone who is part of the Western European tradition can enjoy the music of that tradition unhampered by language. French, Hungarian, English speakers can all enjoy Mozart or Beethoven with no barrier. That is because they share the musical traditions. But a European can't listen to Balinese gamelan music with the same understanding because it is a different musical tradition.<br /><br />Anonymous, what an interesting observation. I share your feeling entirely. That's why I do this blog! Contemplating the music of a single, lonely human makes us realize how music is the creation of multitudinous generations of humans. The very idea of C-E-G took much time and thought by many, many people to create.Bryan Townsendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482696991279345516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-89653863866987098772013-01-12T16:48:46.308-06:002013-01-12T16:48:46.308-06:00I would hope the music of the only person who ever...I would hope the music of the only person who ever lived would be mediocre. Isn't it one of the biggest urges of humans that, when you hear music that blows you away, you feel this primal need to share it with someone. Perhaps the ultimate form of loneliness is that: the inability to share great music.<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-61825408495295093692013-01-12T15:56:55.242-06:002013-01-12T15:56:55.242-06:00Even though it has become a cliché, I've alway...Even though it has become a cliché, I've always liked the saying, "music is the universal language". A metaphor sure, although it could be argued music is a language which communicates emotion (the semantic).<br /><br />And so I've always hated this idea of "musical languages", which is often used by academic composers to suggest most people don't understand their music because they don't understand their personal "musical language".<br /><br />Musical dialects- now that's a different story.Nathan Shirleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14123467208814463388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-67222686982874488122013-01-12T11:00:54.893-06:002013-01-12T11:00:54.893-06:00What a brilliant comment! This syntax/semantic dis...What a brilliant comment! This syntax/semantic distinction is one I have used. After a composer explained the details of how he derived all the rhythms in a piece for percussion from an algorithm of the overtones of each instrument I said, "that's the syntax, what's the semantic?" But I'm not sure he got my point...<br /><br />Thanks so much!<br /><br />Yes, if you were the Omega Man, you could certainly enjoy music, but if you were the only person who ever lived it is likely to be pretty primitive. You won't be listening to recordings, or playing Bach or even playing the piano (no Steinway corporation). Bryan Townsendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482696991279345516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-12695488598574595062013-01-12T10:45:52.734-06:002013-01-12T10:45:52.734-06:00Interesting. Perhaps Ross should have replaced th...Interesting. Perhaps Ross should have replaced the word language by syntax. A language requires both syntax and semantics. While music has no semantics to speak of, it has some sort of syntax: think of the rules of counterpoint and all that. Then one can talk about new syntactical rules for music in a semi-meaningful way.<br /><br />As for music being a social phenomenon, that is clearly the case. But I wonder if it's necessary. To go back to Wittgenstein, suppose you were the only person who ever lived on earth (so you have no language). Could you make and enjoy music? I think you could. The "pleasure" of C-E-G is rooted in physics, and it wouldn't stop with no one else to share it. That said, I don't deny the fact that music -- as we practice it -- is a social phenomenon that can only be understood as such.<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com