tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post5075980682098511892..comments2024-03-27T23:06:03.736-05:00Comments on The Music Salon: Freshly MadBryan Townsendhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09482696991279345516noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-22792911981117773052019-08-11T14:27:24.637-05:002019-08-11T14:27:24.637-05:00This is a very interesting discussion. But like yo...This is a very interesting discussion. But like you I have trouble assessing intellectual depth in music. I mean apart from the musicological aspect of the score and its complexity. While I can point to some very complex scores that are great music, I can also point to more that are garden variety complex that are also great music. So intellectual depth per se seems weakly correlated with aesthetic quality.<br /><br />I was also stymied by the example you came up with in Schoenberg's Violin Concerto which I actually consider a bad piece of music along with his Piano Concerto. The badness I perceive has nothing to do with the score complexity but rather just the unidiomatic scoring for violin and the uninteresting accompaniment. I feel the same about the Piano Concerto.<br /><br />What exactly do we mean by intellectual depth in music I suppose is my real question? There are only a few instrumental works by Bach Beethoven, Debussy and Josquin (these are vocal but have a standard Mass text) where I have some sensation of intellectual questing distinct from pure music making, but realized in musical terms. For all its compositional complexity I don't really find 20th C music to be intellectually deep in a musical sense (perhaps Shostakovich's Preludes and Fugues).<br /><br />OTOH the 20th C libretto and song texts generally show much more intellectual depth than previous times. So I think classical music lost its confidence in the 20th C (as opposed to the overconfidence of pop muysic) and generally was subservient to the written word. In the Middle Ages, composers took remarkable liberties with sacred texts which indicates the autonomy that music had then. Now if you try to set words in a non speechifying way you are criticized for distorting the words. So classical music uses all kinds of extra-musical justifications for itself now.Maurynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-76561829386194676442015-03-19T08:32:14.126-05:002015-03-19T08:32:14.126-05:00Thanks so much Jared, for reminding me of this ver...Thanks so much Jared, for reminding me of this very important distinction. I discussed this at some length in this post:<br /><br />http://themusicsalon.blogspot.mx/2011/07/conservatism-vs-progressivism.html<br /><br />One of my best, I think. I came up with the idea of returning to the roots (the origins) of things. I talked about racinating, being racinative, in opposition to the idea of deracinating, being separated from one's roots.<br /><br />That is a wonderful quote from George Steiner. Alas, the link does not take me to the section of the book, but just to the general entry.Bryan Townsendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482696991279345516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-29934013715426108682015-03-18T19:09:45.871-05:002015-03-18T19:09:45.871-05:00"Originality is antithetical to novelty. The ..."Originality is antithetical to novelty. The etymology of the word alerts us. It tells of 'inception' and of 'instauration,' of a return, in substance and in form, to beginnings. In exact relation to their originality, to their spiritual-formal force of innovation, aesthetic inventions are 'archaic.' They carry in them the pulse of the distant source."<br /><br />-George Steiner<br /><br />Hopefully the address below will take you to a section of the book 'The Master and His Emissary' by Iain McGilchrist where he deals with this topic. I would highly recommend the rest of the book as well.<br /><br /><br />https://books.google.ca/books?id=t5LZoMJfJuAC&pg=PT492&lpg=PT492&dq=originality+is+antithetical+to+novelty&source=bl&ots=rvkqKCaFeK&sig=DW9CrvjmDCs5k6HJIHq5YmtJTFs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cg8KVdfVKeTjsASG0IGgDA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=originality%20is%20antithetical%20to%20novelty&f=falseAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03215244510213768612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-48820053134494214062015-03-18T12:58:34.898-05:002015-03-18T12:58:34.898-05:00Every now and then the comments section heats up a...Every now and then the comments section heats up and really gets fun! Ethan also left a very interesting comment on an old post of mine:<br /><br />http://themusicsalon.blogspot.mx/2012/03/tyranny-of-backbeat.htmlBryan Townsendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482696991279345516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-87306171533072303842015-03-18T12:47:00.005-05:002015-03-18T12:47:00.005-05:00Oh, my goodness. Origo et fons , originality, nove...Oh, my goodness. <i>Origo et fons </i>, originality, novelty, novelty as progress, progress as modernity, postmodernity as decay, Decasia (cannot think of his name, just now).... My head is spinning! having read EH's new post, and re-read yours, am going out for a walk :-). Will listen to the birds, and try, maybe, to recall an echo from Messaien's St François d'Assise.Marc in Eugenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04331547981498637474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-14366511233443273052015-03-18T11:50:41.768-05:002015-03-18T11:50:41.768-05:00Thanks, John. I am always looking for new ideas fo...Thanks, John. I am always looking for new ideas for posts!Bryan Townsendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482696991279345516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-70109825848280843592015-03-18T11:47:09.412-05:002015-03-18T11:47:09.412-05:00hi;
i'd request you to read this interview wit...hi;<br />i'd request you to read this interview with an upcoming composer;he makes an interesting point comparing whitman and beethoven,about the ambition of their thought process.maybe this can trigger a post from you.<br />http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2015/03/the-wrong-way-forward/<br /><br />thanks<br />JohnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com