tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post8963348930578205411..comments2024-03-27T23:06:03.736-05:00Comments on The Music Salon: Eurocentric Music?Bryan Townsendhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09482696991279345516noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-27009998258272803332019-08-01T02:19:26.777-05:002019-08-01T02:19:26.777-05:00And thank you for your kind reply.
Actually I wasn...And thank you for your kind reply.<br />Actually I wasn't assuming that you had not heard much Arabic classical music or that you were unfamiliar with the maqam system, but simply that you probably haven't heard this specific piece of music, which I like a lot and am happy to share. Furthermore, my comment did not target you specifically, but rather any reader that would happen to go through this article and the comments.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03564820385686475814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-28794144335652980742019-08-01T01:05:54.982-05:002019-08-01T01:05:54.982-05:00Thanks for your very lengthy comment. I'm not ...Thanks for your very lengthy comment. I'm not sure that I want to re-open this particular discussion, at least, not this week! Why assume that I have not heard much Arabic classical music and am unfamiliar with the maqam system?Bryan Townsendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482696991279345516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-48545054052089631712019-07-30T10:57:35.576-05:002019-07-30T10:57:35.576-05:00I am sorry for a third comment, but I would like t...I am sorry for a third comment, but I would like to share with you a piece of Arabic classical music that you probably haven't heard before...:<br />Listen to اكدب عليك - جورج وسوف - Gorge Wassouf - Akdeb 3alek by halo rahim on #SoundCloud<br />https://soundcloud.com/halo-rahim/gorge-wassouf-akdeb-3alek<br />It is probably more complex than most European classic music pieces, given the complexity of the Arabic maqam system.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03564820385686475814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-41340118356382930932019-07-30T10:50:32.854-05:002019-07-30T10:50:32.854-05:00(Part 2)
Does this mean that American music is aes...(Part 2)<br />Does this mean that American music is aesthetically superior to Turkish or Thai music? Not at all. Quite the contrary actually, would I dare arguing.<br />The only reason is that the US, as global superpower, possesses the (financial and otherwise) means to propagate its music and other (cultural) products everywhere in the world. Also I do not want to forget the fact that the English language being the de facto lingua franca, is also an important factor.<br />But even more preoccupying than that, is the fact that by propagating itself everywhere without proper limitations, American culture (and music) takes the space traditionally taken by other local cultures (and music). So American culture (and music) is rapidly replacing and thereby erasing what is left elsewhere.<br /><br />The classification of music into genres is a western invention that has also colonised the rest of the world. Nowadays when most people in this world think about music, they think about musical genres such as "rock", "pop", "hip hop", "jazz", "blues", "classical", etc. While very few realise that those are western-centric ways of imposing western modes of classifying things upon other peoples in other places...<br />I call that the "classifying mania of European/Western consciousness". All of this has already been substantially laid out by human geographers and critical geopolitics scholars such as Pr. Derek Gregory in his "Geographical Imaginations". The difference is that their analyses often don't focus enough on music and art in my opinion. Yet music and art cannot be ignored as they are civilisational forces that are used to psychologically manipulate people one way or another, and last but not least to create tensions between peoples of different cultures/civilisations.<br /><br />(Please don't try following my train of thought... I hate norms and conventions so it is especially not on such a website that I would constrain myself to follow them...!)<br /><br />To finish, I would like to thank you for creating such as space in which everyone is able to participate and articulate ideas that might be "original". And I would also like to conclude by saying that most musical "experts" in the so-called "West" should be reminded that their vision is Eurocentric - or rather, Western-centric - even though most refuse to admit it. For example, believing that European classical music was a breakthrough in music globally, is a very Eurocentric and colonial way of apprehending the question. Please remember that the way you see the world is culturally, socially, economically, ideologically and politically constrained, and even to a certain extent, predetermined.<br /><br />Peace to all!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03564820385686475814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-48211602686360388692019-07-30T10:50:06.527-05:002019-07-30T10:50:06.527-05:00(Part 1)
Actually, I would like to surprise you a ...(Part 1)<br />Actually, I would like to surprise you a little bit. But before I start I would like to situate myself and my beliefs and opinions.<br /><br />I am considered a "radical thinker" by most people who know me, title that I am glad to accept without preconditions. I am a peace activist, who happens to love music. Music has been one of my passions literally since I was born, and I started to play piano by myself when I was 3. I am now 29. And for the most part of my life I have had (I will explain why I use this terminology later) to listen to "Western" music, be it French music (France being the country in which I grew up), English music, American music, and European music in general (when it comes to so-called "Classical music"). It is only recently that I have been able to free myself from the burden that is this cultural limitation of music when it comes to what's played and what's heard in general (in the so-called "West" and beyond).<br /><br />I have traveled extensively, and have recently become acquainted with "music from elsewhere", if you like. And it has opened new doors for me. I could even argue as far as saying that it has contributed to "opening my ears to new tonal and musical dimensions and horizons". As part of my diversifying campaign I have stopped listening to "Western" music completely - at least no more French, American and English music for me. Why? Because I got so tired of it. I became so tired (and yet, I am only 29) of hearing always the same thing disguised differently - conventions of genres to be blamed.<br /><br />Let me take an example that will help you understand what I mean.<br /><br />Have you already wondered how many times in your life you have heard, say, parts of Beethoven's 9th Symphony, the Rolling Stone's "Paint it, black", Boney M's "Daddy Cool", Led Zeppelin's "Knocking on heaven's door", or Rihanna's "Umbrella"? And yet most musical artists are unknown to most. And it is always the same guys we hear (about).<br /><br />What does this mean? Well, it simply and unfortunately means that music is as much about economics as it is about politics. Music has been used at least since the time of European colonisation of the Americas as a cultural force to shape people's views and opinions. And even more than that, music (and art, more generally) has been used as an imperial force to culturally colonise most of the world, especially since the rise of the American empire (from WWI onwards).<br /><br />Now, it almost doesn't matter where you go... it could be NYC, London, Paris, Amsterdam, İstanbul, Sydney, Kuala Lumpur or Bangkok, you will hear many of those familiar songs you already know. (Globalisation, of course, is the main reason for it, but not the only reason.)<br />Indeed, the main reason why American music is being played everywhere in the world is exactly the same reason why McDonald's and CocaCola are available almost everywhere in the world. This process has a name, and it is called American cultural hegemony, which is a part of American imperialism.<br />Why is it that I hear Michael Jackson and Beyonce while in İstanbul, but never hear Ahmet Kaya or Zeki Müren when I am in NYC? This is exactly what I mean. If music was just art (unpoliticised), then I would be as likely to hear American music in Turkey or Thailand as to hear Turkish or Thai music in America. Yet it is simply not the case. <br /><br />Now let's see why. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03564820385686475814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-69805170443485538002017-08-24T18:06:11.493-05:002017-08-24T18:06:11.493-05:00Respectfully, I do not accept the validity of that...Respectfully, I do not accept the validity of that formulation.Jiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02430049896063808671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-79592944182067112912017-08-24T18:02:06.773-05:002017-08-24T18:02:06.773-05:00Well, yes, and I think we have engaged with that p...Well, yes, and I think we have engaged with that point in various ways. But it is quite likely that you think that all musical opinions (and music itself, presumably) are also political opinions because you have been captured by an ideology. "The personal is the political" is another expression of this ideology. There are many ideologies out there, but they have one thing in common: they offer to the believer a simple template to understand the world; this is their main appeal. The problem is that this simple template, which answers all questions, is a low-resolution one and the answers it gives are not very good. You should have a look at your ideologies. Where did they come from? What do they imply? Are they good ones? Be critical of your own ideologies.Bryan Townsendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482696991279345516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-19740719990624490062017-08-24T15:37:08.479-05:002017-08-24T15:37:08.479-05:00My central point with all of this is that there ar...My central point with all of this is that there are no musical opinions that are not also political opinions. Ethan Heinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01302188185900843722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-42018866751976143932017-08-24T15:06:48.445-05:002017-08-24T15:06:48.445-05:00"I think that Kanye's tweaking of delay p..."I think that Kanye's tweaking of delay presets is more interesting at this point than playing four against three polyrhythm in a string quartet"<br /><br />I have to say, that makes me a bit sad. <br />So, Ethan. I disagree with probably 95% of your assertions. I listened to the Reynolds, there's a bit of interest there, but it might have been more engaging without the omnipresent rhythmic bed, and maybe some motivic development. <br /><br />Not sure where you're teaching, but conservatories across the nation have had jazz and third stream departments and recording arts programs for decades. If you're at a rather serious classically oriented conservatory, then maybe that's not the best place, they're in the business of teaching the basics and conserving our very precious cultural heritage, and you are "done with playing instruments." Everybody else is not "done" with that, they're passionate about it. It requires an athleticism best developed in youth. Perhaps you struggle in an environment which is just too conservative for you. Though, I do think some of the changes you espouse might occur naturally over time as new generations come up. <br /><br />I stand by my statement that a dollop of harmonic sophistication (not complexity for its own sake) could only improve the efforts of Kanye et al. I don't think that pop musicians are musically unsophisticated, you sure do need some skills to do that well. But I'm not willing to put Brahms and the Beatles in the same league either. I think that rap/pop is reaching its decadent, too-much-information phase, a sort of arms race for the latest shiny digital chirps, burps and samples. Now, Kendrick Lamar is a rapper who's gotten my attention, because he's incorporating jazz in a very authentic way, right into the bones of his music, with erudition, and it shows in the music. <br /><br />What I think everyone objects to most heartily is the idea that all of this must be done RIGHT NOW, in a top-down fashion, in service of some amorphous "good". Beware when using that word. Worst of all is the implication which began all this, that differing opinions must be motivated by racial animus. I love pop music, but I do not put it in the same experiential category as a Brahms symphony or a Bach mass, and it's role in music ed should not be central. Cue tear-down of Bach and Brahms... Jiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02430049896063808671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-73862372033245123512017-08-24T13:58:38.214-05:002017-08-24T13:58:38.214-05:00Just two things, Ethan, and then I think we should...Just two things, Ethan, and then I think we should let this thread lie in peace. First of all, thanks for the Todd Reynolds clip. It is a very interesting piece and I'm glad to have heard it. It reminds me a bit of Steve Reich and one of the most interesting things about Steve Reich is that he started out playing with tape loops and discovered some interesting rhythmic effects. But then his first thought was to try and realize these with actual musicians because just having a tape recorder do it was not as interesting--or as musical--as having musicians do it.<br /><br />Second, don't feel you have to answer every comment. You don't. Pick a particular train of argument and follow it. You are trying to chase too many rabbits and it weakens your case. This is especially true when you bring in social messages. If you want to argue music, argue music. If you want to argue politics, argue politics (but not here!). It is very awkward when you combine them because it opens up the discussion so wide that it loses all coherence.Bryan Townsendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482696991279345516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-10761315013823284592017-08-24T12:42:13.412-05:002017-08-24T12:42:13.412-05:00The reason to study hip-hop isn't that it'...<br />The reason to study hip-hop isn't that it's heady and seductive. The reason to study it is that it's where all the genuine creative risks are being taken, where new ideas are constantly being tried and rejected, where artists are talking about what's happening around them and to them. I think the "legit" composers should be studying Kanye more closely because, while their music is usually more complex and certainly more difficult to understand, it's also generally not very, you know, good. Success in the marketplace doesn't automatically make Kanye a good artist, but it also doesn't automatically make him a bad one, anymore than it did for Duke Ellington or the Beatles. <br /><br />Dismissing rap in 2017 is like dismissing jazz in 1947 or rock in 1967, it's turning away from the locus of the culture in all its splendor and ugliness. The ugliness is certainly present in hip-hop; it would be insane if it wasn't. A black man in St Louis is more likely to be killed by a cop than an average American is to be killed by anyone. Rappers wouldn't be doing their jobs as artists if they weren't engaging in that reality, and we're not doing our jobs as listeners if we aren't. Black issues are white issues too. It's not a matter of "guilt," it's a matter of being a good and socially engaged person.Ethan Heinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01302188185900843722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-29947814036778892372017-08-24T12:41:16.387-05:002017-08-24T12:41:16.387-05:00I think that Kanye's tweaking of delay presets...I think that Kanye's tweaking of delay presets is more interesting at this point than playing four against three polyrhythm in a string quartet. Digital delay doesn't sound like playing the same notes over and over because it's an uncannily perfect repetition of precisely the same information. Whether or not it's "easier" to use plugins to achieve the effect doesn't make any difference to the listener experience. If string quartets were using more digital delay, I might be listening to more string quartets. I like Todd Reynolds' work because he's exploring the expressive possibilities of delay--I'd love to hear him produce some hip-hop.<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKUSsQZFzsE<br /><br />I don't know Kanye, but I know a lot of other hip-hop musicians, and to presume that they're musically unsophisticated because they use computers for production is uninformed at best. It reminds me of the way that people used to talk about jazz improvisation, as this completely intuitive thing where you just played whatever you felt. There might be some happy accidents involved in hip-hop production, but in my observation everyone usually knows exactly what they're doing and why.<br /><br />I've done playing with instruments, and "playing the studio." The barrier to entry to playing the studio is lower, but attaining mastery is not any easier. Untimately, making good music on a computer requires a lot of deep listening and creativity. I know way too many traditional musicians who are underskilled in both areas. If traditional music training was all it took for people to effortlessly master knob twiddling, then all my music technology students would be great at it. But they aren't. Knob twiddling is indeed taught in recording arts programs, but that's considered to be a completely separate area of study from actual musicianship. In 2017, we need to consider it to be as much a part of the foundation as theory and aural skills. The kids should know why Kanye's tracks sound so much better than everyone else's, not just why Beethoven's voice leading works better than everyone else's. <br /><br />I guess what I'm arguing here is that the European conservatory model is not the best one for every music student. It's fine to run trade schools for orchestra musicians, but it's irresponsible to take every would-be musician and run them through a trade school for a trade that barely exists. If you're determined to be an oboist in a symphony orchestra, great. But I teach a lot of kids who want to be musicians, who don't have a one hundred percent clear idea of what that is, and who end up mastering a bunch of skills that they can't use anywhere outside of music school. I want to prepare them to go out in the culture and make music that connects with people. I absolutely want classical music in the curriculum, but I want the curriculum to have a broader base. I'd want those kids who aren't one hundred percent committed to classical music (which is almost all of them) to come out of music school having at least some idea of what's involved in writing a song, making a recording, and improvising, all of which would serve them well in the strong likelihood that they don't end up in a symphony orchestra. <br /><br />I'm sorry, but the question of happens to Kanye's music when the electricity goes off is just silly. Is it supposed to be a mark of aesthetic quality that you can do your art in a blackout? Are we going to disqualify film, TV, anything involving computers, and any kind of music that's amplified or recorded from serious consideration? By that logic we should make classical musicians perform by candlelight. Feel free to not like rap music, but let's keep things rational. Although I will also point out that rap works very well with just voice beatboxing, and I'm sure Kanye would function just fine in a streetcorner cypher. Ethan Heinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01302188185900843722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-35048042860847893882017-08-24T09:49:09.644-05:002017-08-24T09:49:09.644-05:00Of course, you may. Of course, you may. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-57096159809575368772017-08-24T08:53:07.546-05:002017-08-24T08:53:07.546-05:00This has been one of the best comment threads we h...This has been one of the best comment threads we have had in a long time. Thanks to Ethan Hein for getting us fired up and for coming into the arena and joining the debate. And a big thanks to my lovely commentators, many of whom know more about the details of popular music than I do. One other person that I think helped me create a space where vigorous, yet civil, debate is possible was my first year philosophy professor, Eike-Henner Kluge, who taught me the ins and outs of genuine philosophical discussion.<br /><br />I was in a discussion once with a colleague about some issue in international economics (god help us!) and at a certain point I felt the need to point out to him that I didn't actually care who of us had the right of it. I wasn't even hugely worried about what the correct answer was. But what I was really interested was in how we got to the truth, whatever it is.<br /><br />I think that we can appreciate Ethan's enthusiasm for Kanye West without actually sharing it. Hey, I used to be a huge fan of the supergroup Cream and their extended improvisations! But I can also see their limitations and why everyone does not share my enthusiasm.<br /><br />Sr. Anonymous, can I quote something you said in the quote section in my right hand column? Thanks!Bryan Townsendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482696991279345516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-50849378081425878042017-08-24T06:21:13.141-05:002017-08-24T06:21:13.141-05:00@Christopher you say: 'I find it extremely pro...@Christopher you say: 'I find it extremely problematic to claim that a scholar has to appreciate or focus on a cultural artifact just because his/her ancestors did, even if it is of little interest to him/her personally. That seems the same sort of identity politics that you repeatedly criticize here on this blog.'<br /><br />All the best cultural artefacts are inherited. Hip-hop is a cultural inheritance too, and not simply the whim of a generation or person. For the most part I've inherited the music I like from the European continent; Mr. Hein has inherited the music he likes from the Africa. As things stand, most of us can go either way with our cultural inheritance: I have ancestors who listened to jazz and swing and others who liked Western classical music. As Mr Hein wrote earlier, 'For myself, and for most creative musicians practicing in the world, the African diaspora is closer to the root of the tree.'<br /><br />I should perhaps be careful in describing hip-hop as violent, as I don't have the authority to say. It seems disproportionately violent compared to other art forms. Is that fair? Certainly there is a conspicuous absence of the good and the beautiful.<br /><br />@Ethan oh goodness yes, prog rock was disastrous. And I think I agree with you about harmonic complexity/sophistication 100%, or near enough. Everything you say about Kanye West's music puts me off unfortunately, especially the description of 'him standing across the room from the mic and screaming, filtered through Auto-Tune and a different distortion.'Stevennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-82334311153149819282017-08-23T18:07:18.652-05:002017-08-23T18:07:18.652-05:00Early hip hop was exhilarating: Public Enemy, Wu T...Early hip hop was exhilarating: Public Enemy, Wu Tang Clan, Nas, 2Pac, and the usual suspects caused a true revolution in pop music. Rock and (thankfully) disco had died, so the world was ready for something new. And the New York rappers delivered! They put hip hop on its track for greatness and bound to become the world's most popular music genre. Then when all the gangsta/playa stuff threatened to kill the idiom, people like Jay-Z and yes Kanye West rescued it. But then in my view the music died by running out of creative juice. What Ethan has shown is that Kanye is a monster producer with a rich enough palette to break new grounds constantly. But is it good? I'd argue that it's mediocre and not anything as innovative as Ethan suggests. Unlike the rap pioneers, Kanye traffics in the standard collage-like production of performative sonic experiences. And bear in mind liking it is not the point. I don't "like" Joyce's Ulysses. But I can see that it's great art. And this leads me to my main point, which is that the converse is true.<br /><br />One can like bad art. For example, I really like Andy Warhol and Roy Lichtenstein, and apparently I have top art critics (like Danto) on my side. But do I think it's good art? No, I think it's quite mediocre, dead-end art. I love Lou Reed but I don't think it's good music either. <br /><br />I could elaborate but I suspect everyone is tired of this debate so I'll just leave it at that. By the way, <br />I always find plenty to disagree with on Bryan's blog but I always find it a stimulating place for discussion and I seem to learn something new every time I visit this site. I thank Ethan for his participation. Solid, civil differences of opinion can be a wonderful thing.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-61713777122033664782017-08-23T16:31:15.221-05:002017-08-23T16:31:15.221-05:00Fair enough, Ethan. I applaud your willingness to...Fair enough, Ethan. I applaud your willingness to engage. I listen to everything too, but I don't pretend that Kanye's tweaking of delay presets is equivalent to actually playing a four against three polyrhythm in say... a string quartet. I think your analysis of Love Lockdown gives way too much credit, and I think your traditional musical training enables you to see more complexity there than Kanye ever did. I make electronic music too, it's mostly computer work, knob twiddling, point/click, sound collage, recording studio as instrument. Lots of good stuff happens that you don't even plan. But I realize that I'm just detuning a sample, or applying a chorus or a phase shifter. These skills are taught in a recording arts program, no? <br /><br />What it isn't, is the "Performance of Music in Real Time on Real Instruments", the cultivation and preservation of which skill seems to me the point of the conservatory. Pressing a button on your laptop does not need to be taught at conservatory. Also, I ask myself, what happens to Kanye's music when the electricity goes off? <br /><br />The technological sophistication and variety of pop music is very heady and seductive, I get it. And I think there are many things classical composers could learn from the immediacy and accessibility of pop music. I'm currently obsessed with Charli XCX and PC music collective. But those techniques are a shaky foundation on which to build a musical education. Maybe you were overstating it, but your proposal to shift the culture of music ed in response to essentially the commercial success of hip hop, with a big shove from white guilt, seems very misguided. <br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />Jiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02430049896063808671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-58038317481196770782017-08-23T14:13:37.878-05:002017-08-23T14:13:37.878-05:00My favorite thing Kanye has ever done is this: htt...<br /><br />My favorite thing Kanye has ever done is this: https://soundcloud.com/kanyewest/say-you-will<br /><br />It's a remix of a song from 808s and Heartbreak that he did with Caroline Shaw. No one was demanding that he remix this track; he just felt like it didn't live up to its potential, so he did this new version paid for out of his pocket and is currently giving it away on SoundCloud. Here you have his otherworldly Auto-Tune on top of her stacks and layers. You don't have to like the effect, but it's a pretty remarkable one.<br /><br />But so let's talk about 808s and Heartbreak. Even there, simple though the tunes sound, the level of sonic detailing is amazing. In "Love Lockdown" there's a very subtle tempo-synced delay that puts a three-against-four polyrhythm on the entire vocal. He turns on the distortion just for that one line in the first verse and then you don't hear it again. Towards the end there's what sounds like an electric guitar solo, which is him standing across the room from the mic and screaming, filtered through Auto-Tune and a different distortion. The innovation of tuning kick drums to play the bassline means that there's no need for bass, which leaves an incredible amount of empty space at the bottom end of those tracks. The midrange is pretty empty too aside from the vocals, so you can really hear the whole overtone series of those kicks. On a club system you can play those tracks loud enough that people can feel them in their chest cavity without hurting their ears.<br /><br />Do I think Kanye is "high culture"? Who cares? I teach in two music schools. I hear plenty of "art" music. I hear very little that I would want to hear twice. If any "serious" composer was making music that excited me as much as Kanye's does, I would care more about "serious" composers. I went and listened to some of Caroline Shaw's music after hearing her collaboration, and it's interesting, but none of it is as impactful as it is when combined with Kanye's beats.<br /><br />I'm not expecting to convince anyone reading this to enjoy Kanye's music, or anything else. But I'm a well-educated musician. I listen to everything. Either I'm deluding myself into hearing more depth in Kanye's music than is really there, or maybe you just haven't given it enough attention.Ethan Heinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01302188185900843722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-27538621002709113422017-08-23T14:13:25.738-05:002017-08-23T14:13:25.738-05:00I'm 42 years old, so my own tastes in hip-hop ...I'm 42 years old, so my own tastes in hip-hop also lie in the late 80s and early 90s. That doesn't mean I've lost interest in what's happening currently. Most of what's on the radio is fairly terrible, but most of what's on the radio in any genre of music during any era is fairly terrible. Back in Austria in the eighteenth century, there were a lot more Salieris than Mozarts. So it is now. <br /><br />There's a difference between harmonic complexity and harmonic sophistication. I do not believe that increasing the harmonic complexity of hip-hop would necessarily make it more sophisticated. I think its extreme harmonic minimalism is one of its strengths. The timbres and rhythms are really complex. If the harmony was that complex, it would be too much information. Consider: back in the 70s, prog rock and jazz fusion tried to play extremely harmonically complex music on synths using elaborate multitrack recording techniques, and the result was mostly awful. Another point to consider: I've been listening a lot to the Bach chaconne from his D minor violin partita. You know how there was a period when people were writing elaborate orchestrations of that piece, with all kinds of added harmonies? Did any of those improve on someone just playing it on solo violin? Last thing: listen to Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp A Butterfly to hear a rap album with a lot of densely chromatic jazz harmony. He pulls it off, but there's a reason that few other people are taking that direction.<br /><br />The nice thing about the relentless 4/4 is that it creates an anchor for a lot of elaboration. As the base tempo slows, the pulse is moving from sixteenth notes to thirty-second notes, and even the most middle of the road top 40 hip-hop tracks are subdividing beats in ever-more-surprising ways. And now everyone is doing the Migos flow, moving in and out of eighth note triplets, along with the usual dragging way behind the beat. If the meter got more complicated and you tried to do all of that elaboration and cross-rhythm, it might sound amazing, but would probably end up being a mess. Venetian Snares is doing a lot of electronic dance music in odd meters, and while it's more "interesting" than commercial EDM, it doesn't really grab me. <br /><br />I don't think Kanye is important because of his commercial popularity. I think he's important because his music is consistently breathtakingly great. No one in the mainstream world is as creative with the timbre of the human voice as he is, and few "art" musicians are either. I love his use of processed and sampled vocals especially. In his song "Famous," he combines Rihanna singing a Jimmy Webb song through tons of compression and Auto-Tune with Nina Simone singing the same song in her usual unvarnished way, along with a Sister Nancy sample that he re-pitches into a new melody, thus taking her already otherworldly dub vocal and making it sound even stranger through phase vocoding. On top of all of that you have his combination of speech-like rap and singsong rap. No one else is doing all of that in a single track.Ethan Heinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01302188185900843722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-88141902826669284212017-08-23T13:32:10.172-05:002017-08-23T13:32:10.172-05:00Bryan, you wrote: "European classical music i...Bryan, you wrote: "European classical music is IN FACT more fundamental ... because it is OUR musical tradition"<br /><br />That tradition was ruptured in the mid-20th century. While it is known that European classical music had its great following and impact for centuries, that all generally passed away before many of the people working today were even born. The tradition handed down to them is that of popular music. <br /><br />I find it extremely problematic to claim that a scholar has to appreciate or focus on a cultural artifact just because his/her ancestors did, even if it is of little interest to him/her personally. That seems the same sort of identity politics that you repeatedly criticize here on this blog.<br /><br />As for Steven's deploration of hip-hop as violent, so are many other art forms. Consider the Kyrgyz <i>Manas</i>, which over the last century has gradually won praise as a masterpiece of intangible cultural expression. So much of its narrative consists of brutal predations on neighbouring peoples, which are of course positively depicted because the perpetrators represent the same people as the bard himself.<br /><br />Most orally transmitted epic poetry is of a similar cast; the modern rapper’s amassing of "bling and bitches" is nothing new. Whenever people disparage the lyrical tropes of hip-hop – or narcocorridos – I am usually led to suspect they do so out of a wider distaste for the ethnicity or class writing those lyrics, because they are pretty par for the course in human culture. If anything, the belief that violent lyrics are bad is a very modern one alien to so many of the cultural traditions of prior ages that are now held to classics.Christopher Culverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13497448580399752587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-55773775243648208922017-08-23T11:08:03.431-05:002017-08-23T11:08:03.431-05:00Aaaaaaaannnnndddd the winner of the thread is: Jiv...Aaaaaaaannnnndddd the winner of the thread is: Jives!<br /><br />In fact, I am getting an idea for a very relevant post on musical historiography: Can the Culture Ever Be In Decline: a Whig History of Music?Bryan Townsendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09482696991279345516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-8507362774147223542017-08-23T11:07:51.556-05:002017-08-23T11:07:51.556-05:00That's fair. I'm glad you aren't attra...That's fair. I'm glad you aren't attracted to its violent content -- though I suspect a lot of people sadly are (if not a majority, a significant majority, or else it wouldn't be so successful). I don't find sexuality objectionable, but I do find the implicitly violent sexuality in the (admittedly little) hip-hop I've heard objectionable. Having witnessed the behaviour of people listening and dancing to this kind of music in nightclubs, I find it hard to see it as in any way liberating and benign. (FWIW, I certainly experienced no such 'crushing self-loathing' in my rather ordinary 'white upbringing'.)<br /><br />When I listen to music, I'm often able to do so almost abstractly. It would seem very strange to listen to music to affirm my morbid skinniness, for example. When there is a reason, it's altogether larger and more purposeful: what is transcendent and what is inspired, something outside of my experience and not really about me in any way. There are other more mundane forms of music (and I mean that not in the disparaging sense), and they're certainly interesting, but not equal.Stevennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-10367774138299594252017-08-23T10:39:47.084-05:002017-08-23T10:39:47.084-05:00Back in the 80s and 90s, rap used to be much more ...Back in the 80s and 90s, rap used to be much more closely related to funk. James Brown loops formed the basis of many a song. Good stuff, tonally grounded, nice beats. Every now and again, I dip a toe into one of the latest rap releases, Future, Drake, Jay Z, and I'm disappointed again and again to find them just god-awful. A dreary cacophony, plodding, harmonically inept, lyrically unedifying. I don't care how much the kids like it, that does not make it good. <br /><br />"Hip-hop treats harmony as a totally optional component of the music"<br /><br />To its detriment, I happen to think that a measure of harmonic/melodic sophistication would IMPROVE the output of hip hop artists, don't you, Ethan? I mean, I hear tracks that are so clumsily assembled, so harmonically incoherent, they're a chore to listen to. The only thing that saves much of this music is the relentless beat (always in 4/4, why no other meters?)<br /><br />" I want school authorities to recognize that "Western" culture is as much defined by Kanye West as it is by Beethoven, if not significantly more so"<br /><br />wow-ee, you've lost the thread. Kanye does not, by virtue of his commercial popularity, supplant Beethoven as a contributor to our culture. What exactly has Kanye contributed to the culture, MUSICALLY, not in terms of social awareness etc, but musically? 808s and heartbreak? A meandering collection of chintzy electro drums and auto-tuned vocals, that's high culture now? <br /><br />"The core competencies of hip-hop, on the other hand, are not being taught in conservatories, and conservatory training is not much use for emcees and producers<br /><br />So, in sum, I call BS on all this. THe interest in elevating hip hop in the academy seems to be totally motivated by collective white guilt. Jiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02430049896063808671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-81516352985956506722017-08-23T08:59:24.106-05:002017-08-23T08:59:24.106-05:00You don't have to be racist to recognize that ...You don't have to be racist to recognize that people with different life experiences are going to have different relationships to music. I'm an upper middle class white Jewish guy. It would be silly to imagine that I enjoy hip-hop in exactly the same way as a poor black person. (And of course, there are overlaps in our musical experiences too, just like there are overlaps in our non-musical experience.)<br /><br />I can't speak to the motivations of every white hip-hop lover, but I can speak to my own. I listen to the music in spite of its violent content rather than because of it. I find the music so compelling that I'm willing to work around the confrontational lyrics. The n-word in particular makes me extremely uncomfortable and I would really prefer it not to be there. (I would similarly imagine that lovers of Wagner are listening to the Ring Cycle in spite of all the incest in the plot, rather than because of it.) <br /><br />As to the sexual content of hip-hop, though, it's a peculiar sickness of white Judeo-Christian culture that we automatically hear that as pornographic. Not every world culture finds sexuality to be intrinsically sinful or objectionable. Black music attracts me in part because of its frank and unhysterical treatment of sexuality, compared to the simultaneous revulsion and fetishistic fascination that white artists tend to fall into. The cheerful and good-natured body positivity of Missy Elliott has helped me overcome some of the crushing self-loathing I learned in my white upbringing. Of course, not every rapper is as wonderful as Missy. Plenty of the sexual content in other rappers' work is there for shock value. But it's too simple to say, "oh, there's sex in there, it must be dirty, and stupid people are seeking that out."Ethan Heinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01302188185900843722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8827040061563065922.post-32618561847814050562017-08-23T08:23:34.659-05:002017-08-23T08:23:34.659-05:00I also recall Allan Bloom quoting Plato, who saw m...I also recall Allan Bloom quoting Plato, who saw music as the 'barbarous expression of the soul'. Bloom thought classical music tried to tame and civilise music, forming it into art, and that much of pop did the opposite, and is popular for that reason. (Not that I agree, just that it suddenly came to mind.)Stevennoreply@blogger.com